I’m still rather distraught about the passage of Prop 8 in California, and what that says about our society.
Please watch this special comment by Keith Olbermann…. it’s not one of his rants, I promise. His expressions are heartfelt, and his gentle questions to those that would deny others the joy of marriage are questions which I would love to have considered and answered.  If you voted for Prop 8 (or would have if you could), I urge you to watch this brief video. It’s a questions of love for our fellow human beings.
Keith says it beautifully, he usually does, even in his rants. If everyone who voted ‘yes’ would just look at it that way, imagine what kind of world we would live in.
Thanks for posting that, Allison.
Excellent. He cuts through the crap and gets right to the heart of the matter. Amen Keith.
This is beautiful. I wish I could make everyone I know just take six short minutes to listen to his thoughts.
I saw this yesterday (or the day before).. very nice of him to pass this message on to his large audience. I’m more and more hopefull the California Supreme Court will throw out Proposition 8. The legal arguments for them to do so are sound. And, now that the Governor there has said he hopes they do, that lends some seriousness to it. My only thought is when will they rule on this?
The individual right to equality is a birthright in this country. The Federal and states’ constitutions all include equality clauses and are the cornerstone of those documents. You can’t then just put one groups’ rights up for popular vote. If they throw out this Proposition, it will not be an activist court, which is what we will hear from the right. It will be an example of a court doing their job defending a upholding the constitution. It will also demonstrate a court doing their job in protecting the rights of a minority against the tyranny of the majority.
This fight is not over yet.
I read tonight that there is a large protest in front of the Manhattan LDS temple. I wish I’d known about it earlier. I’m not a believer much in marching. I don’t think it sways people. But I likely would have made the trek to the city to participate – just to feel I’ve done something besides bitch online.
This whole Proposition 8 thing comes at a time when a very good friend of mine was gay bashed 2 weeks ago. As he walked out of a gay bar, someone hit him in the back of the head. He woke up in the hospital a few days later after they’d done brain surgery to stop the hemmoraging. I spent last Sunday with him, and he talked the entire time with his eyes shut, and several times just sort of passed out, which he told me not to get excited about, it was the meds. The next day he was back in the hospital after having a seizure, and now he has to take seizure medication every day to prevent a repeat. Apparently where they hit him (with a weapon like a bat or a club likely) is the part of the brain that causes seizures when damaged.
And he will be in bed mostly for 7 weeks as his skull heals.
And when these churches use fear to fight our rights, it is this kind of behavior that results. They would deny that, of course, but the link is very real.
I have listened to people over the last few days try to explain their feelings about Prop 8. I believe it is a moral issue. It has noting to do with equality and rights in the minds of the people that voted it down. I believe that marriage began in the Garden of Eden and was created by God. Man and woman. It is that simple to me. I won’t change what God created. I don’t hate people that are Gay and want to live together, even if I don’t agree with it and see it as a sin. We are given free agency to chose what we want to do and become. I have no right to restrict your choice. BUT, I will fight to preserve that which God created.
Welcome to my blog, Brett! I’m afraid we’ll have to agree to disagree on this one – because I do see it as a matter of equality, as well as a matter of compassion.
I guess I still don’t understand how gays being allowed to marry destroys what you believe God created… men and women are STILl allowed to be married – gays having the same right (legally) doesn’t change that at all. And any church who does not want to bless or sanctify a marriage is free to do so – there would be no gay temple marriages, etc. But I don’t understand how committed gay partners being allowed to marry impacts that at all. Just can’t see it.
Just as a particular church may say that certain behaviors are immoral (sex before marriage for instance) does not mean that they should have the right to legally impose their sense of morality on the rest of society. That’s the problem I have with it.
I understand your stance and you are right, we will just disagree on this one!
I, being a father of four, have always tried to prepare my kids on what the outcomes can be. When they ask questions if they can do something, there is always a “yes” or “no” as an answer. They are always hoping for the answer that favors them, but must also be prepared for the opposite too.When we put a candidate or proposal on the ticket, they, or it, will win or lose and we must be prepared to accept the answer. The people have a right to vote.
That is the beauty of our system.
I didn’t vote for Obama and don’t agree with Prop 8. I’m not happy with the new President, but the people have voted. I will deal with it. My kids have always said, “but that’s not fair”, and I have been told all my life that life isn’t fair. We must learn to adapt.
Ugg! Hello Brett.
Man, is it hard to pleasantly disagree on this one! But I appreciate hearing your brief statment on why you take the position you do. It can be good to get a little more info and explanation on where people are coming from – it helps me be a tad more tolerant (even though I still think they are wrong! 😉 ).
I personally believe God created Gays more than he created “marriage”. If you exist, God created you. 🙂 If you marry, it’s because you chose to.
Most importantly, though, I feel personal moral views on this should be completely irrelevant when it comes to the constitution and equal rights in this country. Religious views cannot dictate here. If they do, then we risk becoming like some Arab nations with a state religion where everyone is forced to comply to a wide range of moral laws regardless of their own beliefs. So if you want to stick with the marriage you believe is intended, please do. Please just don’t tell others they have to stick with your view, as well…
Thanks for helping your children learn to be adaptable, though. 🙂
I find it very interesting that no one is blaming the Black vote for the failure of prop 8. The majority of black voters were against it. But there is no way anyone will touch that one because the “race” card would come into play. Another sign that people, even typically liberal people, have an opinion on what marriage is and it’s definition. Food for thought.
So, Brett… Allison takes some really great pictures, eh? What do you think of them?
Have a blog were we can see any pictures of your kids?
(yes, we are redirecting you to safer waters…. it is currently deceptively calm here in the deep, and we would like your visits to here to be pleasant ones…. ) So, now… lets go safely over here…. 🙂
I think it had more to do with religion than race. I think what most liberals are blaming are the lies, misinofrmation and fearmongering that went on in regard to campaigning for Prop 8 – 80% of which was funded my Mormons. Yes, the (religious) black vote was a factor – but I don’t think it would have been had churches not actively campaigned and spread misinformation/fear about what it would mean.
The fact remains that allowing gay people to marry in no way affects a straight couple’s marriage… it’s harm is only in that people are “offended” by it. (I may be equally offended by certain religious practices, but it deson’t give me the right to outlaw them).
But yes… I agree with Kristin… let’s move to safer waters 🙂
I am known for “stiring the pot” in most circles. I have also been told that I “stir” both ways! Towards the positive and the negative. I feel that I am the “lone” person in your blogishere with my views. I am okay with that. Thanks for steering me to more neutral waters! I will turn off my motor and coast for a while.
As for pictures…I will work on it!
No, you’re not the only one… but perhaps the only one brave enough to share them 🙂
I’m glad you’re here though!
Okay, I’m not in the mood to be in calm waters…
â€I believe that marriage began in the Garden of Eden and was created by God. Man and woman. It is that simple to me. I won’t change what God created.â€
Brett, your beliefs should not interfere with my right to the pursuit of happiness, and to me, you cannot be happy without a family.
My thoughts on your religious views, including the idea that the Garden of Eden was a real place, or that Adam and Eve were real people shouldn’t have to matter to you either. It’s called freedom. Freedom to make your own reality without interference from others who believe differently.
â€I won’t change what God created.â€
First off, nobody should ever have been in a position to have a hand in changing anything when it comes to another groups right to equal treatement under the law. If the Supreme Court does it’s job, it will throw this proposition out. Individual rights are not to be voted upon. We are not a democracy. It should not matter what the ‘people’ think. It should not matter what you think. We are a constitutional republic, and I hope the court throwing this idiotic proposition out will remind everyone of that.
It’s nice that you tell you kids things aren’t fair. They haven’t been for us gay people since the beginning of time. You displeasure that your candidate didn’t win means nothing to losing a civil right. Try having your family declared irrelevant, and have the rights and benefits that come with it lost… and then tell me you’d just accept that. You would not! And we will not. We will not accept anything less than full equality.
AMEN! Robert!
“Try having your family declared irrelevant, and have the rights and benefits that come with it lost… and then tell me you’d just accept that. You would not! And we will not. We will not accept anything less than full equality.”
Would someone share with me 1 instance of equality. In anything? Things are not always equal. Race, gender, religion, education are all dealing with inequality in some form or another.
We live in a world where everyone thinks that they are entitled to equality and fairness. I believe that we “favor” things. Children, a parent, a sibling, etc. All things being equal, is an oximoron.
Pot stirrer! Pot stirrer!!! 🙂
I’m just running out the door – but if someone else (Rob :)) doesn’t beat me to it, I’ll try to find time to respond this afternoon…..
ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL. It is we, people, governments and institutions who create inequality. Civil rights are not just for a select few, or those who believe that their God made the rules. This is not a moral issue and as such religion has no place in the argument. I say this in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen.
I am going to stop stiring the pot now!
If you are wondering why I am blogging now and have been silent in the past. I work in the Auto business. People are not buying cars right now, so I have time to blog. So, if you want to help the economy…go buy something! Anything! When we stop or wait, we do the bulk of the damage. So go do your Christmas shopping and help our economy.
We will all benefit from it.
I agree with you Brett. We must not act out of fear. We certainly need to be prudent in our spending during these rough economic times but we also need to keep the economy stimulated and do what we can to keep business moving.I’m sorry your business is one of those experiencing loss, especially since you have a family to take care of. I’m sending good thoughts your way.
“Would someone share with me 1 instance of equality.”
Equality has never been the standard in this country. But the founding fathers were inspired by God to set it as the ultimate goal. The stated purpose of our country.
That inspired statement did not make exceptions. Unfortunately, uninspired men have since the beginning.
In the beginning, slavery being legal had to be included in the constitution in order for the colonies to ratify it and become one country. But because of that one inspired statement, consciences were pricked, and slowly, people began to see the injustice and inherent evil in it, regardless of what the mainline churches of the day said. They fought to uphold slavery because it was an insitution from the beginning of time. Plus it was Biblically based. But that one statement led people to understand that it was wrong – despite what the Bible said.
Women had always been considered property of their fathers or husbands. They could not vote. They could not own property. They could not run a business without the approval and participation of a male relative. If there was a divorce they lost custody of their children immediately and generally left the union with no rights. All of that injustice was rooted in the Bible. And again the churches fought the change to equal treatment. But it came because of the that one inspired utterance.
Today, it is homosexuals who have been demonized. It is we who the uninspired church leaders fight agains because again, that prejudice is rooted in the Bible. A book that has done far more harm in the world than good. Because the so called ‘righteous’ hearken to the dark side of it… the man inspired parts that uphold slavery, racism, sexism, and yes, homophobia. All of it evil. All of it rooted in that book.
We have not obtained full equality for any of the groups mentioned. But for the 1st 3 at least, society has come a long way from when that inspired proclamation was first written. And in time, full equality can and will be achieved. Despite the Popes and priest, the prophets and rabbi’s who cannot see past the dark side of that book, and because of that they cannot embrace the light in it.
In all of their actions regarding Prop 8, ‘do unto others as you would have done to you.’ had no place.
All men are created equal. Period. There were no exceptions. It is not the place of the Catholics, or the Baptists, or the Mormons or the evangelicals to make an exception.
They were wrong on every level of this fight. They have worked to prevent all men from being equal, because of their embrace of the dark side of the book.
They are working against the will of God.
The above line, “If there was a divorce they lost custody of their children immediately and generally left the union with no rights.”
I meant to say they left with no property. They never had rights to begin with…
I, wanted to respond on an emotional level since I am a married gay man, for now. I didn’t think the notion that people choose to be gay still existed. Craig and I are going on our 15th year together. In the short time same sex marraige was legal we talked about doing it because we were worried about family members swooping in at either of our deaths and taking half of what we’ve amassed away. We also wanted rights of medical decisions and also tax benifits. My kids and grandkids visited for a week in Sept. and while they we here Craig proposed. I cried in front of the kids and every thing. It was an emotion I didn’t expect. I thought I already felt married. Our kids dressed up and went with us to the courthouse and we had a little ceremony. Things changed. I felt valid. I felt like I finally had what I was taught was the ultimate privilege. I got gifts and cards from people who were genuinely happy for us. When prop 8 passed, it was like a kick in the stomach. Legally we’re still married but I’m afraid the feeling is back to the way it was. It’s not bad, but it’s second class. Do I give back the wedding presents? I almost feel like I should appologize to all the people that were happy for us. The family pictures at the courthouse seem empty, and it makes me so sad that people who don’t know me get to decide what I can and cannot do based on there religion. I’m done. The more I share the more sad I get, and I really value staying positive and happy.
We love you Paul. So much harder said than done, but please don’t let this recent vote change your special day. It is still so special, and I am praying this “proposition” is just a blip in the road that we’re going to get past. I admire so much your ability to stay positive and happy in the face of constant discrimination. I’m so mad I could kick and scream, but don’t let it spoil the beautiful day you’ve had.
what do you believe to be the “light” from the Bible? We have different views of what the “light” is. Do you believe that a great percentage of our constitutional principles came from that book? Over the last 30 years people have been trying to rid our country and the constitution from any tie to the Bible or it’s principles and teachings. Look where our country is?
It’s a mess. There is no accountability, the morals are decaying, and we are always looking for someone else to blame instead of looking within ourselves.
In the Bible, a woman was brought before Christ who had been caught in the act of adultery. Everyone wanted her stoned to death. Christ slowly gave the personal answer that had everyone in the crowd think inward. “He who is without sin, cast the first stone”. The crowd left. Christ was alone with the woman. He said he didn’t accuse her of the sin, BUT he did tell her to “go sin no more”. She had to repent on her own. He showed great love and compassion to the woman, but also told her how to act in the future.
That is the “light” that I see and read.
Thanks Kristin, for the kind words. It makes me that much more sorry for the Bi-Level hair cut. Must have been hell growing that one out huh.
The light from the Bible was the teachings of Christ setting us free from the man-made dark side that most of the faithful today maintain is God’s way. The sexism. The racism. The slavery and subjugation of marginalized people. The homophobia. It’s all ugly. And today, as in times past – because it is in the bible, or was the norm to a people who lived thousands of years ago, it is just accepted by the modern day Pharisees and Sadducees as God’s way.
The Golden rule is perhaps the most fantastic and all encompassing statements of what the ‘light’ in that book is. And again I say, it was entirely lacking in the actions of your church and the other churches in their embrace of the dark side of that book.
No I do not believe a great percentage of our constitutional principles came from that book. That book does not offer much in the way of personal freedom or liberties. Nor is it a statement of the equality of man. Instead you have all sorts of groups claiming to be the ‘chosen people,’ and justifications of prejudice against many other groups (other tribes, Samaritans, etc)..
There is absolutely no tie whatsoever between the constitution and the Bible. And thank God for that. As I’ve stated before, that book has done the world immeasurable harm and the founding fathers were wise to it. They knew what it did to Europe where Catholics were burning Protestants at the stake, and Protestants were burning Catholics. All in the name of their religion, based on their interpretations of that book. They knew the idea of the ‘divine right of kings’ was biblical. They knew if the Bible was introduced to what is a gloriously secular document, it would only be a matter of time before one group was burning the other, or some nut would lay claim to be our King and justify it by the bible.
Thomas Jefferson, in writing drafts of the constitution included a statement about the Bible, and Benjamin Franklin demanded it be removed.
Wow – what a lively discussion this has become…
Brett, I understand where you’re coming from (as do all the people who have been posting on this thread – every one of them was raised mormon, and several served missions). It seems, however, that you are unable to ‘put yourself in someone else’s shoes’ – though perhaps your comments are geared more for prodding discussion than actually reflecting what you may feel. I don’t know (as it’s been over 25 years since we’ve seen each other).
Your position is based on the idea that being homosexual is a sin. That is a popular interpretation of the bible. I know many who would debate the validity of that interpretation – but even if it is accurate, it is meaningless in terms of the law of the land. The constitution is not any more beholden to the bible than it is to the Quran, the Torah, the Bhagavad Gita, A Course In Miracles, or the Idiots Guide to the Internet.
There are many, many, many activities listed as “sin†in the bible which are absolutely ridiculous – which are no longer enforced – and if they were, most of us would have been executed years ago. Frankly, I’m so detached from religion these days that I haven’t left space in my head to remember all of them, but I’m sure Rob could list a dozen in a matter of seconds.
I remember when my entire view on homosexuality shifted from the closed-minded, “it’s a sin†and “it’s a choice†world view to the absolute clarity that everything I’d been taught about it was wrong…. it was like I’d received a revelation 🙂
It was in the 80s, the day that my very favorite brother-in-law… one of my all time people in the world (yes, that’s you Paul 🙂 )told me he was gay. I’ve been a supporter and advocate for gay rights ever since.
It hurts my heart to know of the pain Paul, Rob and other friends and family experience because of the prejucides of others – and for the religious of the world who want everyone to conform to their standards and religious belief practices.
Brett (and others who read my blog that share your sentiments) – I hope you’ll come away from reading the experiences and feelings of these dear, sweet people and soften your stance. As Keith Olberman said in his inspired ’special comment’ – you don’t have to embrace them, you don’t have to promote their rights – but don’t stand in their way of happiness and equality.
You really are a pot stirrer! 🙂
Paul, take heart… this isn’t over yet. Within a short time this nightmare can be reversed, and if it is it won’t be undone.
I know what you mean when you say it was like a kick to the stomach. I was literally sick to my stomach for days. But, as they say, that which does not kill us only makes us stronger. We will prevail. No doubt about it.
Well I’m tired and off to bed.. But before I leave I have just one thought…
Following my earlier remarks I reiterate that we haven’t achieved full equality in this country yet, but are closer to it than when we began…. and every step of the way the religious have fought the changes toward equality because of the blessed bible (notice I refuse to use a capital B).
With California, that Supreme Court correctly noted that we too are equal and had the right to marriage. The right to the pursuit of happiness in creating a family. They weren’t creating a new right. They were simply recognizing what was already a right. For equal treatment under the law is a birthright…
And again, the churches are determined to stand in the way…. But this is the first time in American history where rights, once finally recognized, have been voted away by other people. No gains by blacks or women or any other minority have ever been reversed. So in this ‘land of liberty and justice for all,’ which has become nothing more than a meaningless, hollow slogan, we have finally seen Americans (AMERICANS FOR CHRIST’S SAKE) vote rights from their fellow citizens. Shameful. Inexcusible.
And so I’d like to leave you all a link to a catchy little song by our friend, Janice Leber… which I think nicely reflects my sentiments:
http://choppedliverproductions.com/flash/DayOfRapture.html
enjoy.. and goodnight..
Paul,thank you for sharing your thoughts and feelings with us. I know the long road of pain and hurt and the sacrifices you have been forced to make because of your sexuality. It makes me furious when I think of what you and Craig and every other loving same sex couple have had to deal with for so long. I do believe that Prop 8 will be overturned but I think the venom spewed by the those that supported the measure will take longer to reverse. I agree with Rob in that more harm has been done to mankind in the name of religion, justified by writings that claim to be the word of God than anything else. I would encourage everyone to read, “Misquoting Jesus” the name of the author eludes me. I have a rather large personal library, as Allison can attest, but unfortunately it is not organized enough for me to find the book right now. Anyway, the book is an excellent read and should convince any reasonable person that what is used as the literal word of God is indeed an amalgamation of ancient writings and personal preferences of its many, many translators. I like to think that even though the gay community is being tried and tested, the greater test is ours and we are failing miserably. I’m rambling so I will just say Paul, Craig, Rob you are loved and respected and we will always support you and work hard for your rights.Keep your spirits up.
I have one more problem. I will then stop defending my beliefs and just listen. I have read all your comments and have learned a great deal, but more over have felt more. My problem is this. The Attorney General of California job is to defend the constitution of the state. To defend the current laws, not rewrite them. Prop 8 failed by the vote of the people of California. He has stated that he will take this to the Supreme Court to have them decide. Number 1: that is not his job. Number 2: he supposed to defend the vote of the people. The Governor has also come out and said the same thing. They both are stepping outside of the boundries of their jobs.
What if other issues were treated in the same manner? Every time the people vote and we don’t agree with the outcome, we go to the courts…what is the purpose of voting?
Allison, you are right. We have not seen each other since high school and both of us have changed through our experiences of life. I remember a different Allison of 30 years ago. So this is a getting to know you again time. No hard feelings. By the way,
I love your photography!
For me, the issue is that this should not have been put to a vote to begin with. The majority should not have the right/ability to vote away the rights of others. Just not the way our society is supposed to work – and that is why it will (I hope) be overturned.
Sorry for the downward turn in busines, Brett, but I’m delighted it’s giving you the opportunity to engage in my blog. I’m enjoying getting reacquainted 🙂
If 52% of Californians had voted for an ammendment to the state constitution that made it against the law for people of different races to marry would it not be appropriate for the governor and the attorney general to step outside the boundaries of their jobs to address discrimination? It’s a moral obligation as far as I’m concerned to denounce any kind of discrimination when ever it rears its ugly head until one day ALL men and women are treated equally in EVERY facet of human existance.
I meant to add thanks to you Aunt Kathy and everyone else for all your lovely supportive comments regarding our wedding. It feels so good to know there are many who will continue to help us gain equality.
Found it! Misquoting Jesus, the story behind who changed the bible and why. by Bart D. Ehrman.
Ehrman is a former born again christian with a very interesting personal story. He chairs the department of religious studies at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill. He is considered a leading authority on the early church and the life of Jesus. A few examples of what is covered in the book:The King James Bible was based on inferior manuscripts that in many cases do not accurately represent the meaning of the original text.
The favorite story of Jesus forgiving the woman caught in adultery ( John 8:3-11) does not belong in the bible.
Scriptural errors were so common in antiquity that the author of the book of Revelation threatened damnation to anyone who “adds to” or :takes away” words from the text.
Allison, If you have time when you are in town you can read my copy.
“What if other issues were treated in the same manner? Every time the people vote and we don’t agree with the outcome, we go to the courts…what is the purpose of voting?”
Passing laws are one thing, stripping away rights are another. It hasn’t been done before. I know in the 80s or 90s California passed an amendment for term limits and the court threw it out. I read tonight that since the 40s, 9 challenges to voter approved amendments have occurred, and 3 were eventually invalidated. Unless politics get in the way, this will be the 4th.
I will also state here that all of the anti-gay marriage amendments passed in any and all states that have passed them are completely unconstitutional. They just are. I’ve ignored them largely because I know one day the US Supreme court will rule them unconstitutional. But California was different. California was the first ruling where a Supreme Court finally ruled marriage a civil right. And because they did so, I think it lays the foundation for them to throw Prop 8 out.
Thank you Kathy for your support. Another book I think you would love is titled, “Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism” by Episcopalian Bishop John Shelby Spong. Incredible book. I couldn’t put it down. And after reading it, I knew the Bible was mostly the opinions and rantings of people who lived long ago, and as humans are imperfect, much of that was wrong…. what I call the dark side because it included prejudices that are just NOT part of God. Yet, because it was included in the compilation of the book by the Catholics, it is now considered God’s Word. And the too-faithful just accept that without any critical reasoning or thought on it. It became obvious slavery was evil. It became obvious women could handle themselves, and it should be obvious to everyone today that homosexuals are homosexual naturally and that we are not hated or condemned by God. The idea is so irrational it makes you want to cry that today, the 21st century, there are still people who can’t use reason to ascertain basic simple truth.
anyway, if anyone reads that book, and I hope someone does… I’d love to discuss it.
In Chapters 7 and 8, he first introduces the reader to Paul the apostle, and then lays out the evidence so powerfully, from Pauls own writings, that Paul was himself a homosexual. And he was. It is so clear. If you read what Paul wrote about himself and his sexuality, it is clear he was a homosexual. And if you read it, you’ll see what I mean..
Anyway… appreciate all the words of support here..
If Kathy would start her blog (it’s all ready, just waiting for her to post 🙂 ) you guys could have great book discussions!
Hey Brett: I’ve learned some things from you too. I’ve always considered people like you, the problem. I didn’t consider giving you a voice or an opinion. You’re the enemy. What I learned is that your a gentle man collecting information. You were blasted and then conceded to just listen. Thankyou for listening.
Rob, Thanks for the heads up on Spong’s book. It sounds like a good read. I will try to pick it up soon and let you know my thoughts.
Hey all, it’s Craig and Paul’s nephew again. Looks like I jumped into this comment storm a little late. So, rather than repeat what I think Robert said wonderfully, I will just plug my own blog, which is at thelastdaysblog.com. Yes, I’m shameless, but my latest entry is a speech that I gave this week on Proposition 8. Take a look if you’re interested and let me know what you think!
Josh, I read you speech and am very much impressed. Years ago I gave some speeches on gay rights at North Idaho College a couple times, and at Eastern Washington University. I know it can be unnerving to stand up before a crowd of people and talk like this. But I just bet you had a very satisfied feeling when you were done.
My favorite paragraph of your speech was this one:
“Arguments against same-sex marriage are many. But I will lastly address the one that is used most commonly: religious belief. I am not here to judge anyone’s religious beliefs as right or wrong. I think that if someone believes that gay marriage—-or just being gay or lesbian at all—-is wrong, or evil, or unnatural, then so be it. You are free to believe that people like my uncles—-or me for that matter—-will go to hell, and I have been told that to my face. But one of the wonderful things about living in America is that our constitution protects religious freedom. Another wonderful thing about America is that we have determined that with religious freedom comes a separation of Church and State. Thomas Jefferson fathered this doctrine and it has held true for decades, protecting both freedom of religion and freedom from religion. So, when it comes to American citizens’ fundamental rights, I do not believe that religious beliefs may get in the way. It is wrong and un-American.”
It really is un-American. And I’ve have pondered lately why we have had so much division in this country. I think there are many groups who lose sight of what it is to be a true American. Instead, they are Catholic first, and American 2nd. They are Mormon first, and American 2nd. They are (fill in the blank) first, and American 2nd. Thus, it is perfectly acceptable for them to persecute us because they feel justified by their religion. The opiate of the masses. The drug has completely changed their perspectives and altered their allegiences. And since God is on their side, they are justified in their evil deeds.
We live in scary times.
I just clicked on Allison’s link to the PostMormon.org and read a chain email circulating amongst Mormons, reportedly from a temple worker inside the LA temple during the protests. This is actually quite humorous. The protesters, who had just had their rights stripped away, largely from the Mormons and their funding of the lies that hit the airwaves, somehow morphed into a ‘mob’ as unto the days of the prophet Joseph Smith.. LOL.. The mob ‘surrounded’ the temple. Actually the protestors, the victims of a most hateful campaign… stood in front of the temple to protest. Miracles occurred in the temple during this dangerous time… while immobolized due to a white powder someone mailed them, they decided to proceed with their temple work. Exactly how that is a miracle is not explained, but hey… it’s one of those Boyd K. Packer faith promoting stories I guess. The whole narrative was quite humorous.
I know from my life as a dedicated Mormon, that Mormons have a fetish with persecution. It not only fosters an us vs. them mentality which keeps them separate largely, but it helps them feel closer to early day Mormons they feel were persecuted too (and thus the references to early church persecution being similar to what they are experiending now ‘in these dark times’)…
In fact, one side provided tens of millions of dollars to smear the other. To demonize them in order to remove a right that in no way affected them… And the demonized group lost a civil right…
Who are the real persecutors? It amazes me how they have attempted to turn the tables and portray themselves as persecuted when it is they who are the persecutors.
I think your speech was especially good in that you stated outright they have the right to vote how they want. They have the right to believe what they want. But you also put it into the proper perspective that is the ONLY rights they have. There is a separation of Church and State…
I also agree with your statement that we will prevail.
Great speech..
I’m glad you shared this with us Josh. Well done! I’m Paul and Craig’s Aunt Kathy so that makes you part of my family (if you wish) Next time there is a protest in Salt Lake City we must try to meet and introduce ourselves. Anyway, great speech.
I have kept quiet for quite awhile reading all the comments. I consider myself an “inactive mormon”. I DO believe that God intended marriage to be between a man and a woman, but, just as humans evolve and change, I believe that marriage has changed. I believe that if two consenting adults can find love and treat each other well, more power to them and it’s NONE of my business!!! Please pay attention to the wording I used in that sentence: “I BELIEVE”…meaning, those are MY beliefs!!! That doesn’t mean I am correct. I am not God. No one in any religion is God. They are MY beliefs and it is NOT my place to force my beliefs on anyone else. Isn’t that the whole damn reason we came to America? How can anyone possibly think they have the right to FORCE their religion or beliefs on someone else?!!! I have been rather terrified of the power the church has exhibited in this whole prop 8 mess. It frightens me that there are so many closed-minded people that are willing to attack other human beings. As a survivor of abuse by a Preisthood holder, I say WHY oh WHY won’t the church (and other religions) go after the REAL perverts…the child molesters and pedophiles hidden within the church. Do you know what kind of difference these religions could make for those defenseless victims if they would put their money and vicious energies into attacking those evil people out there? I don’t understand (and never will) the desire or motivation to go after human beings that are consentually trying to make a loving commitment to each other and are wanting to be good people. I don’t understand, and the prejudice and power scares me. I think we’re entering into dangerous territory. Did the mormons ever stop to think that maybe THIS is the attack on families and love that they’re so worried about? I believe that these attacking mormons (which is not all mormons) are waging a scary war against all families when they are fighting so viciously to ban gay marriage. There are REAL perversions of “God’s love” out there, and they have NOTHING to do with being gay. I agree with so many others that have said “God created me this way”. I am straight and am an “inactive mormon” who doesn’t hate the church, but I believe that there are good people and there are bad people, and being gay has NOTHING to do with one or the other. There are bad gay people, bad straight people, bad white people, bad black people. To select a group of people based on who they are and to judge and hate them for the way they were born is frightening and reminds me of Hitler. We are in danger of excusing prejudice and excusing it with religion. Frightening. Paul and Craig, I love you dearly and am grateful for the eye-opening experiences you have taught me. If only we could be such pure and good people…the world would be a better place.
Robert, thank you for those kind words about my speech. I was really happy to be able to share that with others. I only wish the class at my college had been more willing to ask me questions afterward. I’ve actually trained as an actor, so I have no problem speaking in front of people. What I did worry about, however, was framing the issue the right way and making it something people with any belief could listen to and gain something from. I will say it was very difficult to keep it to five minutes!
It is very difficult to accept many LDS people’s strong public support for banning gay marriage. As a former Mormon myself, I know what a strong emphasis is placed on love for your “neighbors,” service, and family. Why they feel the need now to put so much energy and effort into issues like Prop 8 I don’t understand and think is totally misguided. Moreover, I know plenty of LDS-devout who (like my own mother) do not see gay marriage as something they must fight, but rather want to keep their religious beliefs for themselves and continue to show love for others.
Kathleen, I’d be glad to call you family! Frankly, I could use a few more progressive and tolerant family members, because I’m surrounded by my fathers’ family. I love them, don’t get me wrong, but since I came out I’m basically invisible to them. Craig and Paul are lucky to have you for an aunt.
And finally to Lesley, I thank you so much for sharing your story. I’m sure a lot of what you said wasn’t easy to talk about, but I’m glad you did. I completely agree that there are much better ways for the Mormon church (or Cahtholics or church!) to protect their faithful and strengthen families. There is real evil out there, like in the examples that you shared, and that is what they should be fighting. I also strongly admire that you consider your LDS faith a personal belief, and not something to be forced upon others. If only more people could understand it like you do.
One more thing, and then I’ll shut up (for now): I didn’t mean to offend any mormons or any other religion…I understand that there are people that believe that homosexuality is wrong. They have a right to believe that. What concerns me is the spread of untruths disguised as religion and fact. For example, the many people out there saying that if gay marriage is legalized, it will wear away at the moral fabric of society and will affect marriage between a man and a woman. Huh? I have several gay friends that have gotten married, and as far as I know, it hasn’t affected my straight friends marriages. And, how can two people wanting to love each other and make a commitment wear away moral fabric? I wish someone could explain that to me. THAT’S what scares me, is the willingness of so many people to “target” a group of people born a certain way and remove their rights. How is that legal for anyone to remove another human being’s rights? The only time religion should be up in arms and putting all their money and energies into a fight is if someone is getting hurt…if someone is NOT consenting. I just don’t understand. I hope and pray for our own futures that the TRUE meaning of “perversion” or “evil” will come out. I am afraid we’ll be doomed as a society if we start to take away human rights. Okay, I’m off my soap box now.
May I step on for a moment?
That is the question I’ve been asking conservative and Mormon family and friends for years. Name me one way gay marriage would hurt heterosexuals. I’ve asked how has gay marriage harmed Canadian or Spanish or Belgian society? How has it hurt Norwegians? Of course it does not..
Not once have I been given an answer. Instead, I’ve received replies that it is a ‘religious’ issue with them. But good grief, this is America. They should know by now that in America everyone has the right to their own religious beliefs. So why do they think they can prevent the religions who support gay marriage from performing them? I have no problems with Mormons or Catholics or any other church disallowing gay marriages in their little subcultures. But it is un-American to not only strip the legal rights granted by a state to us, but it is un-American to prevent the gay supportive churches from following their own consciences too. This is clearly the case of religious members of these churches who have no idea that we are a secular country trying to force their ideas and beliefs on society as a whole.
Lesley, I appreciate your continued statement that gay people are gay from birth. It baffles me that after all these years, and after all of the evidence supporting that assertion… and after just plain commen sense in thinking about it… it baffles me that I can still have people tell me they support gay people having equal rights, but just not marriage. That they don’t ‘agree with the gay lifestyle.’
What is it they don’t agree with?
That is like saying they don’t agree with the lifestyles of people with blonde hair, or people who are left handed…
It means, in a nutshell, that they still believe gayness is a choice, and therefore, since they don’t ‘agree’ with it… then we aren’t worthy of the ‘M’ word. We must learn to keep our place… and be greatful they are supporting civil unions for us…
Well, equal treatment under the law and equal opportunity are our birthrights as American citizens. It is no one’s place to tell us we can’t have marriage, no matter what they think of gayness or ‘the gay lifestyle’ (whatever that is)… It is not the place of the churches to prevent gay supportive churches from practicing their faith either.
Lately I’ve read numerous opinions from people, mostly Mormons, who voted for Proposition 8, but swear hatred wasn’t a part of it. Maybe not. But prejudice was. The belief that gay love is not as valid in God’s eyes. Whether they admit to that or not, that is the gist of it…
And prejudice is always rooted in fear.. you can see that in their gloating that they ‘saved marriage’ in California. Yet, they still cannot identify how gay marriage has harmed Canada, or Spain, or Norway.. or even Massachusetts… Prior to the election, their battle cry was to vote yes ‘to save marriage.’
They’re so caught up in their self righteousness that they actually believe extending the secular rights the government has granted marriage to us, will somehow destroy society.
How can we deal with that kind of irrationality? I’ve tried for years… patiently… and it apparently just doesn’t work.
My ferverent hope is that the California Supreme court will do right by us, and in doing so… it will force these folks to see that we are a Constitutional republic, and their religious beliefs only matter when it comes to their own lives.
Okay, I’m off it now..
Okay, I lied. I’m now back on my soap box. Robert, I, too, have asked many of my dear mormon friends (who I used to think were rational, open-minded people) how gay marriage would ruin straight marriage and “demoralize” the country. No one can give me a straight (no pun intended) answer. It’s always a run-around. (And I am usually then told that I’m being led “astray”.)
Another favorite (note my sarcasm) assumption is that people “choose” to be gay. Who in the hell would CHOOSE to face the prejudice and disdain and disgust that gay people face? I sure wouldn’t. I am grateful I am not gay. I couldn’t handle being seen as a second class citizen or as a “pervert” or hated JUST because I was born a certain way. My heart breaks for those of you who face these challenges and heartaches every day. My hat’s off to you brave souls who’ve embraced that God created you to be the way you are and who’ve stood up for the rights being cruelly stolen from you. I don’t know if I would have that strength of character. I hope you know there are people of MANY faiths that love you and are fighting to change the tides of prejudice and hatred.